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Posts tagged religion
An Example of Christian Conversation
Apr 24th
I’ve been in this ongoing conversation regarding gay marriage rights. (For your sake, don’t load that in Firefox as it takes forever – try Chrome.) Anyway, it’s your average back-and-forth between the Christians and the rest of the world. Actually, it’s more polite than usual even though I’ve been called an idiot and told I’m going to hell. Here’s a nicer comment:
Hi Debbie Walker, I understand that everyone wants to believe whatever they want to believe, but our constitution is clearly based on Judeo/Christian moral believes. I’m not trying to make the USA look like a Christian country by any means, but the institution of marriage comes from de God of the Bible, the only God, outside the ones we make ourselves to be in our lives as individuals (money, sex, golf, football…). So based on that, Christians have a right to stand for marriage as prescribed by God. We can’t avoid sinning against God, but changing the meaning of what marriage is, or sin is, is going to find opposition. Of course, as in most situations, the ones that oppose are demonized (bigots – homophobics, etc.). I’m not fretting about it. God is still in control, and I don’t fear whatever happens here on earth, in this short life. There is wrong and there is right… you and I know it from within. We can’t go by whatever every minority wants unless their rights are truly violated. At least we can express our opinions about it. I just hope and pray that those that call themselves Christians won’t fight about this. That they would just vote if it comes to it. That they would express their love for the sinners (as they are loved by God as sinners), and be carriers of grace, but most importantly, be carriers of the good news of salvation through Christ alone, who die on the cross for our sins.
And my response. I’m a little bit snarky, not because of his comment but because it’s just another in a series of better-than-thou misinformation that these people really believe:
Gee, it’s funny that way before any mention of your god came along from the aborigines to the American indians, from the pagans to the orientals, every societal group has had some form of marriage – a recognized committed relationship before witnesses. I don’t think you have the monopoly on what a marriage is.
And that’s the fine point. Way before there was a bible for these people to base their entire lives upon, there were societies from the smallest backwoods tribe to massive amounts of say, early Japanese that had never heard of Jesus or the Christian God. And they all had rules and punishments based on just treating each other decently. There were marriages, and punishments for theft or murder, there were various “laws” on property rights and commerce. All of the things that we call civilized have developed all over the globe without knowledge of the Judeo/Christian religions. Amazing! Maybe they had their own gods or maybe they just plain wanted peace and happiness and knew you had to have agreed-upon rules to accomplish that. Thou shalt not kill is not an original thought, y’all.
This one is closer to what responses I usually get:
Bob August: Debbie. Hepatitus A, B and C, HIV and any other STDs in our blood supply. How about the sexual molestation of children by these perverts. Have you ever heard of NAMBLA? “Sex after eight is too late”. They want seven year olds and you want to make them respectable. You deserve to have your children taken by these criminals!
(Bolding mine) So because I support gay marriage, I deserve to have my children raped? How very Christian of you.
Bob Baker: Debbie Walker Are you crazy not affect him it affects the whole country you idot. I am not a church goer but I know what perversion and immorality are. It is un-natural and is perverse.90% of child molesters are gay or lesbian thats a fact, because they are perverse.
People still really believe this bullshit. So I called him on it (as did others) and he doesn’t respond. Typical.
And then there’s the more recent conversation here. This story is about the MAAF (Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers) asking the USAF to stop requiring bibles be placed in every room in on-base housing because it’s, you know, unconstitutional.
And of course the Christians can’t read and assume the MAAF wants the bibles themselves removed. Sure, it would be nice but that’s unconstitutional too. They just want the requirement removed, right? But the Christians just don’t get it. Over and over the comments are all about Christian oppression. Well, it IS a Christian website and the article is written by one of them so…
When the atheists or even those Christians who believe in the separation of church and state try to keep the comments to the facts, it’s the Christians who always start the name-calling. They can’t keep to the topic! Bringing in homosexuality and Nazis, and how this is a CHRISTIAN NATION! and everyone else should just leave or die or go to hell.
This is America…the founding fathers made this nation on Biblical teachings. The Bible is every part of this great nation. If you don’t like it..there is plenty of other countries out there you might like…and they are not doing near as well as this nation because they don’t follow Biblical teachings. GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!
Actually there are a lot of nations doing well without the overwhelming control of religion. Wander around online and you’ll see comments from Australians, Canadians, and Europeans where religion plays a very small part in their government and every day life.
No matter how many times you politely link to factual documents regarding the founding of our country they just don’t get it. And we usually try very hard not to link to biased websites with our facts. But they always, always come back with either bible quotes or links to bible-based websites.
Talking to these people is like trying to use logic with a 2-year-old in the middle of a temper tantrum. I just don’t understand the mind that has convinced itself the their God has a special purpose for the USofA and that we should all be happy to abide by it.
This is just a sample of the conversations I’ve been in lately. I keep trying to bring logic and reason and they still respond with LA LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU! But maybe someone does. Maybe I can reach one small mind and encourage it to think. I wish I were as eloquent as some of my fellow non-believers but I keep trying in my own way.
What is Heaven?
Apr 22nd
I’ve been told so many things in my life about this so-called heaven. Nobody seems to have any idea exactly what it is but they all seem to agree that it’s a great place.
In heaven you meet up with your deceased loved ones. And then what? What if great-grandma wasn’t such a nice person and you really don’t want to spend eternity allowing her to pinch you when she thinks you’re wrong? What if your 1st husband and your second husband don’t like each other and you’re stuck in the middle forever? What if it’s someone who loved you but you didn’t love? Are you trapped by their side or do you get to wander off. To where?
Everyone is deliriously happy and singing all the time, loving God and praising him… forever. Seriously? Does that really sound like something you’d want to do?
Do people who are born gay and have denied their gayness because they’re convinced they can’t go to heaven if they don’t get to finally be happy gay people in heaven? Or do they have to deny their predisposition forever there, too?
I just don’t see the benefit of the heaven I’ve been told about. Actually, most people who’ve discussed it have talked about getting there, not what it’s like after you’ve arrived. It’s like little girls dreaming about their weddings without a thought to the actual marriage.
Seriously, imagine being in a complete state of bliss every moment for eternity. Imagine the best orgasm you’ve ever had times infinity. You’d be happy for 10 minutes tops. After that it’s drudgery.
You can’t have good without bad. You can’t have interesting without boring. You can’t have life without death and when I die I just want to be done. I don’t want to go to heaven and I won’t because I’m an Atheist and I don’t believe in it so if by some bizarre chance there is one I don’t qualify anyway.
Personally I don’t know anyone who actually qualifies by their own rules. Everyone has a dark side, a prejudice or has committed some “sin” they haven’t admitted to. Some little bible rule they’ve decided doesn’t count or convinced themselves means something different.
So tell me what you think heaven is. I really want to know. What is this place you’re working so hard to get into? What do you expect when/if you get there? What have you been taught about heaven?
Why can’t people be good to each other simply because they should. Not for any heavenly reward but because it’s right. Why isn’t it just okay to have a great life and be done when you die? Do you really need a promise of heaven in order to be a decent human being? That’s so sad.
You started it!
Apr 19th
Right there in my reader this morning was Friendly Atheist’s post where he quotes from this video:
They’re bullies. And we know that we people stand up to the bully on the playground — the bully on the playground intimidates, that’s what he does, intimidates people into silence, into fear, into avoiding the bully. And oftentimes the bully is the paper tiger and when the righteous individual who is being bullied defends his or herself and punches the bully in the mouth, guess what, the bully more times than not has a glass jaw, falls down and then everyone on the playground says “whoa, the bully was a weakling after all.”
That’s the secularist left. The secularist left are bullies. They try to bully and intimidate and push religious intolerance and religious bigotry on everyone else.
WHAT. THE. FUCK! Religious people are the bullies in your little scenario.
If you want to compare the ongoing battle between the religious and the secularists, you might want to remember the bully then goes whining to the teacher. You’re whining. Because you can’t bully anymore, your previous victims are fighting back and not starting the fights. You whine because the downtrodden have rebelled. Look in a fucking mirror!
Secularists, atheists and even people who just believe different gods than you have been bullied for centuries. Right now in small towns and communities all over this country people are afraid to admit they don’t believe. They’re bullied in the most despicable ways. Read the stories in r/atheism where people are thrown out of their homes and disowned by their loving parents, they lose jobs, are forced to listen to the preaching and are constantly told “YOU’RE GOING TO BURN IN HELL FOREVER!” Which, actually, doesn’t mean anything to us other than your hate is so strong you would wish this upon another human being. Christian love, my ass.
We’re just punching your bully in the face to protect ourselves. We’re just plain tired of your shit. You have completely over-stepped your boundaries and we’re fighting back. You started it, just like your proverbial bully.
There is no war on religion. You can believe what you want in your churches and homes with people who choose to believe as you. Secularists just want you to keep your beliefs out of everyone else’s life. We’re fighting to stop religious-based legislation. We’re pointing out the fallacies in your “this is a Christian nation” lies. We want our free America back. Stay where you belong and out of our wombs, our bedrooms and our schools and we’d get along just fine.
In my family we have a saying, “Don’t poke the bull.” Eventually the bull gets tired of it and turns on you. Well the bull has turned and you deserve it, so quitcherwhinin.
Stereotypes
Apr 4th
Today’s FUCKed up parenting story:
Girl forced to run 3 hours dies
The gist of the story is a 9-year-old was forced to run for three hours as punishment for having lied to her grandmother about eating candy bars. In the heat, in Alabama.
There are many conclusions you can draw from the little article based on these key words:
- double-wide trailer
- dirt road
- bi-polar and alcoholic
- Alabama
Where does your mind go? What assumptions do you make based on stereotypes?
Then there are the comments. *sigh*
I’ll tell you what, it appears to me grammar ability can be correlated to religiosity. I graduated High School but never went to college and I can put together fairly decent sentences. Sure I don’t have perfect grammar but I’m well above the average Internet commenter, especially the religious ones. Just read through those comments! Or comments on any story with god people and you see they are often barely comprehensible. And I’m stereotyping based on my own observations.
So you have the guy who states the obvious statistical probability.
Trailers, booze, and let me guess, probably a lot more religion than brains.
Followed by over a hundred comments on just that line alone. He’s offensive/he’s likely right. From god saved the child, then god didn’t save the child from the pain but she’s in a better place now, to there is no god. There’s the usual MY religion wouldn’t hurt a child that way so they can’t be real christians followed by those who snarkily point out the bible says it’s fine to kill your own child for misbehavior.
Way more stereotypes based on a small article that actually doesn’t say anywhere the religious preferences of the FUCKed up parent. More assumptions.
We all make assumptions based on what information we get and often we end up being right. But there are times when people get railroaded on the Internet based on that same small amount of information. There are still questions about what happened to Trayvon Martin. All over the web both sides are posting semi-related “information” about the boy, about Zimmerman and even about the police there. Where is the truth? Speculation and out-right lies. I mean somebody has to be lying.
What if Trayvon wasn’t the stereotypical young black man in a hoodie? What if he was a good boy doing no wrong? What if the young girl above was a brat and lied all the time and this 3-hour run was an extreme punishment after several attempts at other corrections? Or was she a constantly abused innocent with a masochistic grandmother.
The point is, we don’t know the whole story. The Internet has become a shouting match for people’s opinions based on stereotypes and personal history.
Take a second next time you type up your outraged comment. Do you really know the whole story or are you just blurting out based on your own stereotypes?
Sex and Religion and Marriage
Mar 10th
Let me start this off with a little family story:
#2 son dated a girl from a Mormon family all through High School. I didn’t meet the mother until much later but one day after they’d been together for about a year I received a phone call. This woman proceeded to berate my parenting skills because she’d just found out they were having sex! Let me say, if you’ve spent more than 10 minutes with #2 son you’d know he – like me – is a very sexual being. So after this woman went on and on I finally interrupted her with this:
“At least all my children have the same father.”
Yes, that was mean but true. She had at that time at least 5 children by at least 3 different men, all long gone. I think she had a couple more kids after that! I honestly don’t know how many of the fathers actually married her.
I’d had sex conversations with #2 from the time he was 12. I had a giant economy box of condoms in the hall closet. I had sat son and girlfriend down a few times and discussed safe sex. I never allowed them to go at it at home, but I knew they were doing it somewhere. That is responsible parenting. Not ignoring the possibility all the while screwing every man in sight and dropping puppies like spare change and going to church every week to what? Put on a good show?
Another story.
We had a neighbor who had married for the second time. Our daughters were and are still great friends. She came home one day and her Mormon husband told her he didn’t want to be married anymore and she had three days to move out. Swell guy. So now she’s married a third time in the Mormon church and as far as I can tell is miserable and lonely in a small town up north.
My aunt and uncle were Catholic and had 5 kids and continue to fuck like bunnies for as long as I can remember. We’d be at their house for a visit and they’d just disappear into the bedroom for a romp. Awesome, right?
Religious people have sex. I’m not even sure it’s just vanilla sex, I’m betting they get into some pretty kinky stuff.
Sex is natural, sex is good, not everybody does it, but everybody should.
As long as it’s consenting adults taking proper precautions to avoid STDs and pregnancy unless they want babies, right? Even older teenagers. Let’s face it, from 15 up sex is the number one thing on their minds. It’s natural! What’s unnatural is denying it. Abstinence is a proven failure.
Religious people have a big problem with masturbation. Religious people have a big problem with birth control. Religious people have a huge problem with any kind of porn. Religious people have a big problem with sex outside of marriage.
Why?
I cannot imagine wedding night virginity and being stuck forever with someone you’re not sexually compatible with. You wouldn’t buy a car you expect to have for 4 years without test driving it! You wouldn’t by a house without seeing it first. Hell, some people won’t order a new food without taste-testing it.
We’ve all been with someone who turns out to be completely incompatible in the bed. Imagine if you had to marry them first to find out. Ugh.
Marriage should be a complete commitment to someone you know well and will love forever, or at least a long time.
I don’t understand the religious obsession with other people’s sex lives. We know they’re doing it so why can’t they just let other people alone. Push safe sex instead of abstinence. And masturbation relieves sexual tension enough to allow clearer thought when looking for a mate so it’s a good thing, right?
There are religions that don’t allow women to leave the house without being completely covered. A woman can be beaten to death just for speaking to a man. In religion it always seems to be the woman’s fault for tempting men. Women are sluts for wanting to have sex. In religion men take little responsibility for unmarried sex, yet they are the ones making the rules. And who are the slutty women having sex with? Men! If virginity were as easy to prove in men as it is in women would it be as valued?
And don’t get me started on the religious and gay people!
Here’s the thing. I respect marriage. Marriages were around way before religion and will be around long after the last god is forgotten. But marriage is simply a commitment between people who want everyone to know they’re together. Mostly for legal reasons to put a finer point on it. I’ve known people in committed relationships without marriage. I respect the commitment. Marriage is not some magic covenant. If it were there would never be adultery or divorces. Men should not be able to use marriage to control women. They should be equals. And it certainly should NOT be entered into without knowing your partner completely.
Which takes us back to sex. I’m not saying you should screw indiscriminately, though you can if you want. You should take responsibility for your own safety surely. You should be able to get access to condoms and pills and procedures whatever else you need to be responsible. And though one-night-stands are a step better than masturbation, you should see sex as a part of a relationship rather than the be-all and end-all of it.
And it shouldn’t matter to anyone else. If it does you should ask yourself why.
Why I Vote for Obama
Feb 23rd
Well… one reason anyway.
You can read the entire excerpt here but this is the part I like:
Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America’s population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.
What our deliberative, pluralistic democracy demands is that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals must be subject to argument and amenable to reason. If I am opposed to abortion for religious reasons and seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or invoke God’s will and expect that argument to carry the day. If I want others to listen to me, then I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.
Exactly.
Throughout this excerpt he admits he’s some sort of a Christian, though he’s not on any particular bandwagon. Still searching or not quite ready to go completely to the religion dark side:
This is not to say that I’m unanchored in my faith. There are some things that I’m absolutely sure about—the Golden Rule, the need to battle cruelty in all its forms, the value of love and charity, humility and grace.
Personally I”m absolutely sure about those things too but I don’t need an imaginary friend to lead or make me feel that way.
At least he’s trying to keep up the illusion of Separation of Church and State.
With the current GOP’s obsession with sticking their noses (and legislation) into the bedrooms and bodies of everyone else the idea that Obama thinks with his brain instead of his bible is a relief to me.
Christian Taliban
Feb 1st
Okay, so you’re a Christian and every time I post or comment something negative about Christians you tell me you’re not like that. That REAL Christians aren’t like that.
I’m sorry, but I think you’re deluding yourself.
You are part of the Christian Taliban if you:
- Vote for any of the current Republican candidates.
- Support any legislation regarding life beginning at conception.
- Support any legislation regarding tighter restrictions on abortions.
- Support any legislation regarding same-sex marriage or parenting/adoption rights.
- Support any legislation regarding supporting creationism in schools.
- Support any legislation regarding an adults’ ability to live their life as they chose as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone else – and that includes fetuses that are not developed enough to live outside the womb.
Here’s the thing, you can believe anything you want, but when you pass legislation to force people who don’t believe as you do – you are the Christian Taliban. I don’t care if you think gays are icky or people shouldn’t kill the babies. That’s your right! If you want to be close-minded and bigoted at home, go for it. But when you people gang up on everyone else, you’re wrong. You’re not making anything better. You’re not saving anyone from themselves. You are dangerous.
Five minutes on Google outside of Christian websites will teach you that this is NOT a Christian nation. Our founding fathers specifically wanted it to be an everyone nation. The 1st Amendment doesn’t say freedom to be a Christian, it says freedom of religion – no matter what religion it is. And my religion is NONE, just like 15 million other Americans.
Either stop being in denial or stop supporting legislation curbing the rights of others. Stop pretending you’re not one of those Christians. Either own it, admit it, stand by it – or get out. Because yes, you’re all painted with the same Christian Taliban paintbrush.
Oh, and clean up your own religions before you think you can make everyone else believe like you. When your every marriage is successful and life-long, when your every child is happy and well cared for, when your women are equal with your men, and when your ministry stops being con men, child molesters or bat-shit crazy, then you can look outward.
Like I said, believe what you want but leave the rest of us alone. We’re getting along much better than you guys. At least we get along.
*Edited because it’s the 1st Amendment debbiedumbass, not the 2nd. Duh-me! Numbers are hard!
Baby Baptismals
Jan 3rd
Well, apparently my grandson was baptized over the weekend. My daughter asked me weeks ago if I was okay with it. Sure, it doesn’t mean anything to me. She’s mentioned it a couple of times since but I thought it was later in the month.
Her boyfriend’s family is very Catholic and she’s been living with them, so it was a given. If it makes them all happy it’s fine by me. I’m sure Jack won’t be any different when I go see him tomorrow.
I had my kids baptized Episcopalian back in the day, even though I never actually joined the church and never went back. Maybe I thought it was a fail-safe at the time.
But even now I still don’t get it. What’s the point again? The child won’t remember, the child may or may not ever decide to follow that or any other religion. Baptized babies aren’t any healthier or happier.
There is that godparent thing. So Tyler’s brother and his wife? girlfriend? I can’t remember are now Jack’s godparents. That means they’re in charge of his spiritual upbringing (whatever that is) and supposedly take custody if anything happens to Tyler and Ginnie right?
Let me tell you now, if anything happens to my daughter and that child needs care that family is in for a big awakening. None of us may have been invited to attend his baptismal or even invited to visit him (only me) but when push comes to shove we’ll be fighting to keep him. It’s her choice now to go along with their religiosity in order to keep the peace where she lives, but so far deep down inside she’s still an atheist just like the rest of my family. We’ll share, but we won’t give up.
And when he gets big enough to question I’ll make damned sure he does. Just like Kira, when she asks me questions I tell her what I think and that other people think differently and she needs to make up her own mind.
Happy Holidays
Dec 25th
My cousin’s wife sent me this email:
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! May Christ’s birth bless you with love and forgiveness in 2012.
(What’s with the love of exclamation points?)
First of all, I prefer Happy Holidays as it’s more inclusive of everyone who celebrates this season. I’m not sure I know any Jewish people or anyone who does Kwanzaa but everyone celebrates something, right? Even our Atheist family we have Christmas trees and gifts, traditional Eve pizza and then drive around looking at lights.
Last night we gathered at Max’s and had our family Christmas. Everyone was happy with my well-thought-out gifts and I was happy with the earrings and fireplace tools I received. And especially the Zynga game card! We even had my Dad on Skype while we opened presents so it was like he was actually there.
Secondly, why do I need forgiveness? One thing I dislike about religion is the assumption that everyone is bad unless they ask forgiveness from some god constantly. What a way to go through life. I’ve read the book and nobody can live up to the standards set there, even if one religion or another could actually finalize them. I feel people are basically good, but some make more bad decisions than others. If I’ve done something I need forgiveness for be sure to let me know.
So… I hope you’ve had a happy holiday whatever it is, and here’s hoping 2012 actually finishes even better than this year.
I’m Christian, unless you’re gay.
Dec 16th
I never do this but I want you to go to Single Dad Laughing and read this blog post.
Go ahead. It’s a long post but it is the most moving thing I’ve ever read. This is what I as an Atheist think religious people should be doing. We ALL should be doing.
And if you have more time, his follow-up post is fantastic, too.
Go.
